Comments on: Extradition will make Dr Toben a martyr http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2008/10/extradition-will-make-dr-toben-a-martyr/ for free expression Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:37:15 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Index on Censorship » Modern Liberty: free speech must be for all http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2008/10/extradition-will-make-dr-toben-a-martyr/comment-page-1/#comment-1191 Index on Censorship » Modern Liberty: free speech must be for all Wed, 04 Mar 2009 11:12:19 +0000 http://www.indexoncensorship.org/?p=671#comment-1191 [...] put you in a very uncomfortable position. At Index on Censorship over the past year we’ve had to stand up for racists and Holocaust deniers. My colleague Padraig Reidy was somewhat disturbed to get a Christmas card from one of the leading [...] [...] put you in a very uncomfortable position. At Index on Censorship over the past year we’ve had to stand up for racists and Holocaust deniers. My colleague Padraig Reidy was somewhat disturbed to get a Christmas card from one of the leading [...]

]]> By: Karl Pfeifer http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2008/10/extradition-will-make-dr-toben-a-martyr/comment-page-1/#comment-836 Karl Pfeifer Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:15:09 +0000 http://www.indexoncensorship.org/?p=671#comment-836 Of course one can criticise laws and international obligations, one can question if the law forbidding nazi activities is reasonable. Perhaps it is the case that one does not need a law, to stop nazi activities? Should we then abolish the law against murder? It is clear to everyone that murder has been forbidden since more than two thousand years. Has it helped? People are still murdered. And from the point of view of prevention the punishment for murder is not very effective. And can we be sure that a murderer has mended his ways after being in prison? Of course one can criticise laws and international obligations, one can question if the law forbidding nazi activities is reasonable. Perhaps it is the case that one does not need a law, to stop nazi activities? Should we then abolish the law against murder? It is clear to everyone that murder has been forbidden since more than two thousand years. Has it helped? People are still murdered. And from the point of view of prevention the punishment for murder is not very effective. And can we be sure that a murderer has mended his ways after being in prison?

]]> By: Amy Aremia http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2008/10/extradition-will-make-dr-toben-a-martyr/comment-page-1/#comment-802 Amy Aremia Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:18:28 +0000 http://www.indexoncensorship.org/?p=671#comment-802 Dr. G. Frederick Toben's delays for justice: Delays after delays gives one to wonder why? Many Revisionists have written facts and opinons about the Holocaust. So much diversity in opionions and facts should be integrated into a meeting of minds on any issue that is the underlying procedure of free interpaly of many different viewpoints from which comes solutions or answers closest to the truth. The power elite cnanot allow such freedom to exist in fear tht the collective minds of a truly preprsentative society can hit upon the correct line of action---this principle has grown out of centuries of Anglo-Saxon experience and is now under fire because it gives political freedom, and respects the opinions of all individuals. There is no doubt that to eliminate freedom of speech, the envy of tyranny, grew out of the questioning and seeking for answers to facts of Holocaust, the so-called "Hate Crimes Laws" have been forced upon the world. Under such an unjust law, all freedom will wither along with the destsrsuction of independent nations. The next step could lead to dictatorship. Dictatorship is not a suit of armor that can be donned and doffed at will. It is a philosophy of life and government in it own right, and once utilized, it may not be discarded without residual effects that are permanent and cumulative, developing a new mode of thought and a mental atmosphere conducive to an ever-easier assumption of authoriatarian techniques, which, in turn, creates an ineffective, valueless, self-sacrificing support. There is no finer proof that where moral ideals have been deeply planted the mind can not be enslaved; nor can the enemies of humanity gain possession of an unimparied brain. Muzzled, broken, humiliated, they continue to teach by example. The courts, lawyers and judges, members of UK Parliament, all governments of independent nations, serving justice, must rise up againist the radicals in dignity to rescind such an unwarranted and unjust law. These men and women must serve for the benefit of a majority presently unable to realize how much the fight for freedom is really theirs. Respectfully submitted, Amy Aremia Dr. G. Frederick Toben’s delays for justice:

Delays after delays gives one to wonder why?
Many Revisionists have written facts and opinons about the Holocaust. So much diversity in opionions and facts should be integrated into a meeting of minds on any issue that is the underlying procedure of free interpaly of many different viewpoints from which comes solutions or answers closest to the truth.

The power elite cnanot allow such freedom to exist in fear tht the collective minds of a truly preprsentative society can hit upon the correct line of action—this principle has grown out of centuries of Anglo-Saxon experience and is now under fire because it gives political freedom, and respects the opinions of all individuals.

There is no doubt that to eliminate freedom of speech, the envy of tyranny, grew out of the questioning and seeking for answers to facts of Holocaust, the so-called “Hate Crimes Laws” have been forced upon the world. Under such an unjust law, all freedom will wither along with the destsrsuction of independent nations.

The next step could lead to dictatorship. Dictatorship is not a suit of armor that can be donned and doffed at will. It is a philosophy of life and government in it own right, and once utilized, it may not be discarded without residual effects that are permanent and cumulative, developing a new mode of thought and a mental atmosphere conducive to an ever-easier assumption of authoriatarian techniques, which, in turn, creates an ineffective, valueless, self-sacrificing support.

There is no finer proof that where moral ideals have been deeply planted the mind can not be enslaved; nor can the enemies of humanity gain possession of an unimparied brain. Muzzled, broken, humiliated, they continue to teach by example.

The courts, lawyers and judges, members of UK Parliament, all governments of independent nations, serving justice, must rise up againist the radicals in dignity to rescind such an unwarranted and unjust law. These men and women must serve for the benefit of a majority presently unable to realize how much the fight for freedom is really theirs.

Respectfully submitted, Amy Aremia

]]> By: Rodrigo Mendoza http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2008/10/extradition-will-make-dr-toben-a-martyr/comment-page-1/#comment-792 Rodrigo Mendoza Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:54:01 +0000 http://www.indexoncensorship.org/?p=671#comment-792 The time has come to end the Orwellian-thoughtcrimes laws which protect Holocaust orthodoxy throughout Europe but limit free investigation and inquiry. Throughout Europe it is legal and some might even say fashionable to question or outright deny the deity of Jesus Christ, but expressing doubt about even one element of the traditional Holocaust story results in jail time. The Germans today ban and even burn books. Authors, publishers and researchers are in prison. Only and open and free exchange of ideas on this or any other subject will allow us to understand and learn from our past. Only dogma requires the support of the government, its thoughtpolice and its prisons. Free Toben, Free Rudolf, Free Zundel Now! The time has come to end the Orwellian-thoughtcrimes laws which protect Holocaust orthodoxy throughout Europe but limit free investigation and inquiry. Throughout Europe it is legal and some might even say fashionable to question or outright deny the deity of Jesus Christ, but expressing doubt about even one element of the traditional Holocaust story results in jail time. The Germans today ban and even burn books. Authors, publishers and researchers are in prison. Only and open and free exchange of ideas on this or any other subject will allow us to understand and learn from our past. Only dogma requires the support of the government, its thoughtpolice and its prisons. Free Toben, Free Rudolf, Free Zundel Now!

]]> By: Conor Walsh http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2008/10/extradition-will-make-dr-toben-a-martyr/comment-page-1/#comment-788 Conor Walsh Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:09:09 +0000 http://www.indexoncensorship.org/?p=671#comment-788 I don't think rigid adherence to notional standards of free speech can be justified in all circumstances. And I don't think we are truly concerned with issues of academic method and discourse. Anti-Semitism in all its lunatic protean forms is on the rise and acts of Anti-Semitic violence are too. The forms of Holocaust denial employed by Toben and others are coded incidences of hate speech which have a real capacity to mobilize the violent and catalyze acts of violence. I refuse to lock myself in an ivory tower and close my eyes to what is happening. If deported to face trial Toben will no more be seen as a martyr than the egregious David Irving. He will have the opportunity to defend his views in a German Court, just as Irving did in an Austrian court. Arguably the forensic cross examination of Irving and the utter discrediting of his so-called research was more of a punishment than the 3 years imprisonment imposed by an Austrian court. I am sure Mr Toben feels he can do better. I don’t think rigid adherence to notional standards of free speech can be justified in all circumstances. And I don’t think we are truly concerned with issues of academic method and discourse. Anti-Semitism in all its lunatic protean forms is on the rise and acts of Anti-Semitic violence are too. The forms of Holocaust denial employed by Toben and others are coded incidences of hate speech which have a real capacity to mobilize the violent and catalyze acts of violence. I refuse to lock myself in an ivory tower and close my eyes to what is happening. If deported to face trial Toben will no more be seen as a martyr than the egregious David Irving. He will have the opportunity to defend his views in a German Court, just as Irving did in an Austrian court. Arguably the forensic cross examination of Irving and the utter discrediting of his so-called research was more of a punishment than the 3 years imprisonment imposed by an Austrian court. I am sure Mr Toben feels he can do better.

]]> By: JDK http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2008/10/extradition-will-make-dr-toben-a-martyr/comment-page-1/#comment-787 JDK Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:54:48 +0000 http://www.indexoncensorship.org/?p=671#comment-787 "The case of the odious Dr Frederick Toben..." Toben is no more odious than the odious Elie Wiesel. Yet Wiesel gets rich and Toben gets jail. I guess it all depends on who you're rubbing the wrong way. “The case of the odious Dr Frederick Toben…”

Toben is no more odious than the odious Elie Wiesel. Yet Wiesel gets rich and Toben gets jail.

I guess it all depends on who you’re rubbing the wrong way.

]]> By: Michael Santomauro http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2008/10/extradition-will-make-dr-toben-a-martyr/comment-page-1/#comment-770 Michael Santomauro Sat, 18 Oct 2008 07:30:11 +0000 http://www.indexoncensorship.org/?p=671#comment-770 What sort of Truth is it, that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? I wish to express my outrage that the Holocaust, unlike any other historical event, is not subject to critical revisionist investigation. Furthermore I deplore the fact that many so-called democratic states have laws that criminalize public doubting of the Holocaust. It is my position that the veracity of Holocaust assertions should be determined in the marketplace of scholarly discourse and not in our legislatures bodies and courthouses. Let's end 'thought crimes' in the twenty-first century. Dr. Toben's thoughts cannot be killed by his imprisonment. Peace. Michael Santomauro www.TADP.org What sort of Truth is it, that crushes the freedom to seek the truth?

I wish to express my outrage that the Holocaust, unlike any other historical event, is not subject to critical revisionist investigation. Furthermore I deplore the fact that many so-called democratic states have laws that criminalize public doubting of the Holocaust. It is my position that the veracity of Holocaust assertions should be determined in the marketplace of scholarly discourse and not in our legislatures bodies and courthouses.

Let’s end ‘thought crimes’ in the twenty-first century. Dr. Toben’s thoughts cannot be killed by his imprisonment.

Peace.

Michael Santomauro
http://www.TADP.org

]]> By: Emile http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2008/10/extradition-will-make-dr-toben-a-martyr/comment-page-1/#comment-769 Emile Sat, 18 Oct 2008 05:45:39 +0000 http://www.indexoncensorship.org/?p=671#comment-769 Toben deserves whatever he gets. He's made a mockery of the dead for many years, and for this there is a karmic debt to be paid. One way or the other. Send him to Germany, let them deal with their own and good riddance! He'll be no more a martyr than a common theif or swindler. Toben deserves whatever he gets. He’s made a mockery of the dead for many years, and for this there is a karmic debt to be paid. One way or the other.

Send him to Germany, let them deal with their own and good riddance!

He’ll be no more a martyr than a common theif or swindler.

]]> By: Syd Walker http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2008/10/extradition-will-make-dr-toben-a-martyr/comment-page-1/#comment-768 Syd Walker Sat, 18 Oct 2008 03:31:40 +0000 http://www.indexoncensorship.org/?p=671#comment-768 How disgraceful, G. Fabien, that you deny the righteous Mr Hulme the comfort of his opening cliche. Is nothing sacred? Is no received wisdom safe from re-examination by revisionists? Shame on you and M Faurisson for your infaturation with pesky facts! Downright hateful, I say! How disgraceful, G. Fabien, that you deny the righteous Mr Hulme the comfort of his opening cliche.

Is nothing sacred? Is no received wisdom safe from re-examination by revisionists?

Shame on you and M Faurisson for your infaturation with pesky facts!

Downright hateful, I say!

]]> By: Index on Censorship » Toben denied bail http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2008/10/extradition-will-make-dr-toben-a-martyr/comment-page-1/#comment-763 Index on Censorship » Toben denied bail Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:08:03 +0000 http://www.indexoncensorship.org/?p=671#comment-763 [...] Index on Censorship for free expression Home About Magazine Subscribe Events Index Arts Projects AWARDS « Extradition will make Dr Toben a martyr [...] [...] Index on Censorship for free expression Home About Magazine Subscribe Events Index Arts Projects AWARDS « Extradition will make Dr Toben a martyr [...]

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